This month’s interview is with Marcy Campbell, whose debut picture book, Adrian Simcox Does NOT Have a Horse!, was a Junior Library Guild Selection, a Top 10 Indie Next Pick, Winner of the Comstock Read-Aloud Award, the recipient of the SCBWI Crystal Kite Award, and was translated into eight languages. She’s since gone on to write other award-wining picture books and middle-grade novels as well.
These days, she lives in Ohio with a husband, children, a rescue dog named Turtle, and two (formerly stray) cats. She’s also especially fond of:
Soft pajamas
A bed full of pillows
Coffee
Chocolate
Yeah, Marcy fits in great with the OPB family—no doubt about it. Let’s get to know our new friend even better via this interview!
RVC: In the bio on your website, you said you didn’t grow up with books. How did you come to love them enough to make it a career?
MC: I was always a storyteller. I made up stories to tell my pets at a very young age, but it was teachers who fueled my love of books. I still remember crying at my desk in fifth grade during a post-recess read aloud when Charlotte (from Charlotte’s Web) died. I still haven’t quite recovered.
RVC: I fully understand. I haven’t quite recovered either.
MC: Because my family wasn’t into books, I started writing my own stories in elementary school and collecting them in a cardboard box I referred to as my “library.”
RVC: When did you first realize you were going to be a writer in terms of a career?
MC: There wasn’t an official parting of the clouds where a beam of light reached down, though that would have been cool. I’d always written, but I don’t remember really feeling like I’d earned the title “writer” until a beloved college professor (a successfully published author herself) sat me down one day in her office and told me I was. She gave me the pep talk I desperately needed, the “permission,” if you will, to feel proud of my work and confident enough to keep pursuing it, despite not having grown up with much support.
RVC: That’s awesome. Teachers like that are worth their weight in gold. Your first professional experiences as a writer were in public relations. What skills/lessons from that job translate well into the world of kidlit writing?
MC: More than anything, my job in PR gave me the opportunity to learn and practice many different types of writing for different audiences. I initially worked at an agency with various clients in different industries, and on any given day, I might be writing a newsletter, a speech, catalog copy, and oh so many press releases. When I decided to try writing for kids, I took the approach that since it was writing, I could study it, and figure it out.
RVC: What kind of formal training do you have in writing?
MC: My undergraduate degree is in Mass Communication/Public Relations, which involved a lot of writing courses, and I double-minored in English and Psychology (helpful when creating characters!). When I left the PR world, I went back to school to get an MA in Creative Writing. Though I learned a lot in my grad school courses, probably the most valuable part of that experience was being in a community of people who loved storytelling as much as I did and were committed to making it a career.
RVC: Please share the story of how you landed your literary agent, Steven Malk.
MC: Around the time I had a draft of Adrian Simcox Does NOT Have a Horse ready to go, I had a few friendly exchanges with a kidlit agent on Twitter, and she agreed to look, then kindly informed me I needed to cut the manuscript in half. She wasn’t interested in repping the book, regardless, so after making some major revisions, I started looking up agents on various lists I found online. That’s one way of doing it, and I sent a query to one agent from that research who never responded. But the better way to find an agent is to look at the books you love and see who represents those authors.
Last Stop on Market Street by Matt de la Peña and Christian Robinson had a huge impact on me as I was writing Adrian, and Steve Malk reps both Matt and Christian. So, I sent an email query with my manuscript to Steve, saying how much I loved that book. After a lengthy phone call, we started working together. I couldn’t believe it was happening for weeks afterwards, but if anyone thinks I was an “overnight” success, they should know I had racked up more than 300 agent and small press rejections on an adult novel I’d been working on for years. Turns out, I was just writing for the wrong age group.
RVC: Thanks for sharing that–it’s helpful to put it all in perspective. Now, how long after you partnered up did you get the offer for your debut picture book, Adrian Simcox Does NOT Have a Horse?
MC: It happened quickly. Steve sent it out just after I signed with him, and we had multiple responses the same day. The book sold at auction shortly thereafter. I’ve since learned that super-speediness is not the norm!
RVC: I can confirm that! What’s the story of how that particular story came to you?
MC: When I decided I wanted to try writing a picture book, I started journaling ideas, and some of those ideas came from my own childhood. In early elementary school, I knew a boy who had a lot of nice things, and I was jealous of him. He also said he had a horse, which was not true, and it just drove me crazy because, although we lived on a farm, we did not have horses, and I really wanted one. The similarities to real-life end there, but that one line in my journal, “A boy says he has a horse, and a girl doesn’t believe him,” became my first published book.
RVC: What was the most important lesson that debut picture book taught you?
MC: Oh, so many! But one important thing was that you can’t please everybody. That book has done and is still doing extremely well–it’s won awards and all that–but of course, there are people who hate it. It’s easy to repeat the negative comments in your head and forget the positive ones, which are far more numerous. As a reader, I know not every book is for me. I’ve put aside award-winning novels that “everyone loves,” but if it’s not doing it for me, I stop reading and pick up something else, knowing I’m just not the right reader for that particular book at that particular time. Nothing against the author’s writing or my taste. I just move on. No books are universally loved.
RVC: Describe your writing process for picture books.
MC: Each one has been different. Something Good, for example, was my response to a real-life event, and came out pretty quickly. Others have taken more time to cultivate. I tend to freewrite around an idea for quite a while, picking it up periodically and adding more material until I start to see the shape of a story. At that point, I sit down to write a draft. Then, I put it away. Then, I pick it up in a few days or weeks and decide whether I still want to work on it.
Sometimes, I think, well, that was a fun writing exercise, but it’s not a story, or at least not a story I’m interested in right now. When a story really grabs me, and I start working on individual lines, then it gets really fun. And, of course, I spend a lot of time reading my drafts aloud since that’s how picture books are mostly shared. It keeps my old dog awake when he’d rather be napping, but I think he forgives me.
RVC: How is the process different than for writing middle grade books?
MC: Very different. I tried being a “pantser” (flying by the seat of my pants) when I wrote my first novel, which never went anywhere. After reading a lot of craft books, and studying other middle-grade authors, I finally settled on a process that results in a loose outline, which I would describe more as a scene list rather than a formal, Roman numeral type of thing. To get to that point, though, I might have 100 pages of freewriting on plot, characters, etc., and once I get some things figured out, I work very physically, with scraps of paper for each scene, colored markers designating subplots, and a whole lot of floor to lay it all out. During the height of the pandemic, when my kids and husband were working from home, I ended up in our unfinished attic, in my winter coat, because it was the only place I could lay out all my scenes undisturbed. I’m sure I looked like I had completely lost my mind, but my family is used to that by now. And yes, I know there’s software for this type of thing, but I’m very tactile. I like to hold the scenes and move them around physically.
RVC: You just had another picture book come out. Is The More You Give a response to The Giving Tree?
MC: Partially, yes. Believe it or not, I hadn’t read The Giving Tree until I became a parent and boy, did I hate it! So, I was thinking about writing a response to that with more giving, less taking, and no room for a rotten little boy/man. I also wanted a subtle message about caring for the environment. I also wanted to explain how some things that are worth doing can take a long time. I wasn’t sure whether I could do all of that in one book until I heard a proverb, “Plant a tree you’ll never see the shade of.” I was at an SCBWI conference when a speaker said that, and I have no idea what the rest of her talk was about because I started scribbling out a draft of The More You Give (at that time, called The Giving Boy) in the back of the room. Sometimes you just need that spark to tie all your ideas together.
RVC: What are you most pleased with regarding that book?
MC: Francesca Sanna’s art is just breathtakingly lovely. I love poring over all the little details. I especially like flipping between the spreads where the forest is growing bit by bit. And the last spread, with a celebration taking place in the woods, is one of those images I wish I could drop myself right into in real life.
RVC: What’s the best writing advice you ever received? Who gave it, and what did it mean to you?
MC: When I had that life-changing discussion with the professor I mentioned before, I remember her passing along some advice that she herself had gotten as a young author from her great-aunt, who told her, “Somebody’s got to write all those books. Why shouldn’t it be you?” It’s incredibly simple, but at the time, since I was crippled with major imposter syndrome, it really made a difference. There’s tons of writing advice I’ve been given and ignored, too. Write what you know, write every day, quit watching cat videos …
RVC: In all your experience of being a writer, what has most surprised you?
MC: I think when I started, I was worried I wouldn’t be able to come up with ideas, which has not been a problem. Ideas really are everywhere. It’s coming up with viable ideas, ones that will translate well unto the page and be compelling to read, that is more difficult. On the business side, I had no idea how long it takes to produce a book, especially a picture book. There are so many steps involved, and so many people. I’m amazed that a picture book doesn’t cost a hundred dollars.
RVC: One final question for this part of the interview, please. What new projects are you working on?
MC: I have a picture book titled, What Are You Waiting For? in the works, with Shelley Johannes illustrating (Little, Brown, 2025). It’s a book about taking chances and pursuing goals, and picking yourself up when things don’t go as planned. I’m also working on another middle-grade novel and, of course, always thinking up picture book ideas.
RVC: Alrighty. Now it’s time for the Speed Round, which means blazing-fast questions followed by meteor-swift answers. Are you ready?
MC: SO ready.
RVC: What secret talent do you have that no one would suspect?
MC: Cattle judging? Though I never did particularly well in those competitions (it’s all about the udder, folks). I was, however, the junior dairy showmanship winner at our county fair. This is basically the ability to lead a calf around with a halter in a very controlled and, can I say graceful? manner. I have a way with animals, large and small, and have always adored them. I also don’t eat them. I’m a whiz at organizing things, too, though people who know me wouldn’t be surprised by that. I can take your junk drawer and turn it into a thing of beauty.
RVC: What animal would be cutest if it were scaled down to the size of a kitten?
MC: Buffaloes. Watch out for the tiny horns, though.
RVC: If someone narrated your life, who would you want to be the narrator?
MC: Is Morgan Freeman available? He could bring some gravitas to my daily tasks for sure. “And now the author takes a break from writing a sure-to-be bestseller … to clean the toilets.”
Can you hear it?
RVC: What surprising books are on your nightstand?
MC: I always have home decorating books and magazines around. If it’s a night where I don’t want to get too involved in a book (and stay up too late), I read those. I’ve had a copy of Dracula there for over a year. My daughter read it in her language arts class, and since I’ve never read it, I borrowed it from her. Every time I dip into it, though, I get too scared and end up having weird dreams. Someday I will finish it…in the daytime.
RVC: Who sets the standard for emotional picture books?
On the middle-grade side, Kate DiCamillo has been my guiding star.
RVC: What’s the best compliment a child ever gave your books?
MC: A very shy little girl came to one of my events recently with her mom. She didn’t speak to me, but gave me a book she had made with folded paper and crayons. It was a story about her, and me, and books. I was so incredibly touched. That a child could imagine herself so fully in conversation with me through my books, that she would create her own book about it, well, that was something awfully special. I keep the book in my office where I can see it, in case I need a reminder of who I’m writing for.
RVC: What a way to end this interview. Thanks so much, Marcy!
I’m especially excited about this month’s Author Interview because Caron Levis wrote one of my favorite picture books–you’ll figure out what it is easily enough in a moment!
In addition to writing terrific picture books, Caron’s stories for teens and adults have been published in magazines and anthologies, her short-plays have been selected for several festivals, and the film adaptation of Attendant won Best Short in Sunscreen Film Festival West (2018) and was selected for the Garden State Film Festival. Pretty cool, right? Caron’s also a professor at NYU and The New School’s Creative Writing MFA program where she serves as the advisor for the Children/YA concentration.
Caron has an LMSW from Hunter College and has facilitated young people’s loss and bereavement groups for The Jewish Board. After many years as an arts educator, Caron now loves using acting and writing to teach social, emotional, and literacy skills to students of all ages through her author workshops. Having trained in acting and dabbled in playwriting, Caron “enjoys turning theatre techniques into writing tools for groan-ups through her workshop Act-Like-A-Writer.
With that, let’s get to that interview and learn more about our new writer pal, Caron!
RVC: What were some of those early formative experiences that got you on the pathway to being a writer?
CL: I have this cassette tape recording of my mother when I was around two or two and a half. She read to me a lot every night–she always read to me lots of picture books. Anyway, she was leaving me with a non-family babysitter for the first time, so she thought it would be helpful to record herself reading our nightly picture books. The one that stuck with me when I listened to it was The Very Hungry Caterpillar. It was amazing because my mother’s Brooklyn accent was so strong, which made it fun to listen to.
You can hear me in the background, calling out the words that I knew–you know, “hungry!” “cherry pie!” that sort of thing. Clearly, I was lucky to have that time in my life where I absorbed so many words and books. As we now know through research and science, that’s one way you learn to read and enjoy books.
I also had a Brooklyn grandmother who was a kindergarten teacher. She loved to read with me. As I got older and became a reader myself, we’d watch Wheel of Fortune together. That all helped me fall in love with words.
RVC: When did you first realize you’re a writer?
CL: The moment cemented in my memory is reading Ramona in second grade and feeling like someone knew me. I enjoyed feeling very validated in the messiness of Ramona. I realized I wanted to write books for other kids so they could know that feeling, too.
RVC: That’s awesome.
CL: I was lucky. I had wonderful elementary school teachers who validated me, or at least I read it that way. Looking back at my journals, there’s not necessarily a budding writer there. There’s a lot of “Can you actually write MORE next time?” But they were always really encouraging.
I’m still in touch with my second- and fourth-grade teacher. She’s in second grade now, still teaching at the same school, and with each new book of mine, she’s invited me to visit her classroom. It’s such a special treat to be able to do that.
RVC: So, along the way, you got all kinds of degrees and training that seemed you had a non-writer path in mind.
CL: I always wanted to be writer, but in elementary school, though, I got taken to A Chorus Line and The Fantasticks, because I lived in New York City. I fell in love. “I’m going to be an actor!” I decided.
Around sixth grade, I wrote a term paper on a famous case of pretty intense child abuse and neglect that I learned about from the TV coverage. It really shook me. I thought about it a lot. I remember thinking, “Why isn’t the world literally stopping to fix this for kids?” That led me to thinking about being a counselor, or at least somebody who worked to help kids.
RVC: That’s a lot of different directions.
CL: I’m still trying to sort it all out! It all comes together though in my author workshops for kids and adults, where I use acting and writing to explore emotional skills and subjects.
RVC: How did that morph into you becoming a published writer?
CL: As an undergrad, I was studying creative writing with the goal of writing short stories and plays. I was taking acting classes, too, and absorbing child psychology through a couple of classes. I was always working with kids through children’s theater, which was influential for me. I combined those loves. I performed a show that was about dating, violence, healthy, unhealthy relationships.
Anyway, I graduated with my undergrad degree while remaining fairly lost about how to pursue those things. Nobody really gave me directions such as “Okay…THIS is what you should do next.”
RVC: Too few students get that kind of useful advice, it seems.
CL: I puttered around, and I’d get jobs in education, doing various things for both love and money. I was writing fiction plays and stuff for kids–a bunch of different things. And I was auditioning and taking part in super off-off-Broadway stuff. I was trying everything.
At some point, I decided, “Okay, I’m not really making headway on trying to do all of these things.” I started feeling that I needed to pick something to dive into and pursue. I realized that I wasn’t really pursuing my acting career aggressively like I could’ve been. I had knowledge. And I had contacts I wasn’t using. Honestly, I found the auditioning process to be soul sucking, and I kept walking out of auditions because I’d look at the script and decide, “I don’t want to do that.” I didn’t want to do commercials either, which is how you earn money as an actor.
I remembered advice I’d gotten during acting training in my undergrad classes. At the time, it made me so mad. A visiting teacher said to only pursue a career in acting if there’s nothing else in the world you can do for work that will bring you joy. Only do it if you’d truly be miserable without it.
I decided I was going to give that a try–I’d completely drop the goal of acting for six months. I started working for a company that hired actors to teach conflict resolution and communication skills in K‑12 schools through push-in programs before SEL was an accepted and understood term. I loved that work so much. It just filled me.
I checked in after six months, and I wasn’t miserable about not acting. I still loved acting as a craft, but I was more in love with the skills and other things it gave me that I could incorporate into my educational work. Acting totally informs my writing process. And it informs me as a human, quite frankly.
RVC: And that’s when you turned to writing?
CL: I was writing more. I tried giving up writing a few times, too, but I’m always too miserable without. So, I’m stuck with it.
RVC: I’ve been there!
CL: I wanted to be a novelist and a playwright and be writing for children all at the same time. At the time, I was still in my 20s and I was working in this wonderful school, in a kindergarten classroom. I loved that. And even when I was writing for kids, I was writing YA and MG. I’d never thought of myself as a picture book person because I wasn’t a visual artist. But I was absorbing so many picture books. I’ve always loved them and never stopped reading them.
I ended up with a notebook full of ideas from students I was working with, and one in particular was really, really sticky. It came from a chat with a kiddo who was feeling blue. I decided, “You know what? I think I want to focus on writing for children.” When I finally said it out loud, everyone around me was like “Duh!”
RVC: Hah!
CL: That led me to reading more intentionally, and checking out books on writing for children, and that led me to SCBWI back when they were borrowing space in an office around Union Square. I went to a few talks with editors, and that led me to finding my first writing-for-children writing group. Truly wonderful folks.
CL: Before I got to MFA program, I’d written a few picture books and sent them out old-school style in the actual mail with SASEs [self-addressed stamped envelopes] and gotten a bunch of rejections. And the one that meant most to me was for a book based on sadness, Stuck with the Blooz.
I keep those rejection letters., When I visit elementary schools, I bring those letters and read them with the kids. Some are form rejections, and some are encouraging. I had one amazing editor who asked for an exclusive and held it for a few months, but finally passed. And I, of course, got totally stuck with my own blues, but kind of came out of it thinking, “Oh, that was close.” That’s when I ended up with the writers group and the MFA program. But at the time, the business was telling me that picture books weren’t selling, and breaking in with a picture book was impossible. So, I was working on YA material instead. My plan was to finish the YA book and look for an agent.
RVC: I’m guessing the plan didn’t go as planned?
CL: Exactly. What happened instead was the kind of luck you get when you’re working for it. I ended up being introduced through someone to Adah Megged Nuchi, an editor who just got the power to acquire books at her job at Houghton Mifflin. I sent my picture book manuscript to her, thinking it was a long shot.
She loved it. And she fought for it. I think it was about eight months of waiting but I got a contract.
The idea for that book–Stuck with the Blooz–came to me 10 years before publication. I still have the notebook from that kindergarten class where I jotted down that idea.
RVC: I save notebooks like that, too. Just in case.
CL: I hope the wait’s not that long for everyone else. But I loved how it came out. It was worth the wait.
RVC: What’s the most important lesson that book taught you?
CL: I had this weird belief that you’re supposed to be really excellent at something before you announce that you’re trying to do it. It couldn’t be worse thinking. Find other writers to support you sooner than I did. Get out there.
CL: Absolutely. SCBWI, a class, an MFA program, a writer’s group—whatever works for you.
RVC: What happened next?
CL: I was reading a lot at the time, really absorbing all these books. But I don’t think I understood how to read like a writer the way I do now. Instead, I was engaging and listening to the kiddos which I just enjoyed doing so much. And then letting my imagination go.
I learned persistence, as well, both in the drafting and the craft, and obviously in pursuing publication.
RVC: Amen to that.
CL: Another writing lesson I learned is that ideas are plentiful. A lot of them can come in. For me, the hard work isn’t coming up with ideas but rather figuring out which ones have enough juice to become a book and are important enough for me to stick through all of the rough parts of the writing and the business.
RVC: You mentioned “reading like a writer.” How does one do that?
CL: That’s one of the best things I got from grad school–learning how to read books like a writer, which is to figure out the names of the craft elements. I mean that both objectively–like what makes something work–but also just for you, as in when you find something that you think is awesome, how do you identify it so you can use it? It’s pulling the story apart to figure out what’s actually being done, such as how to infuse emotion at the line level.
RVC: What is something about your writing or revising process that might surprise people?
CL: It can be really long. I revise forever. This reality wouldn’t surprise established writers, but if you’re new to writing or if you’re a young reader and you learn this? When I explain this in schools, kids look shocked and teachers love having this as a reference when they ask students for more drafts.
RVC: Care to share a bit more about your revision process?
CL: My revision process is very nitpicky. I go over and over things. You have to kind of tear it away from me. With my last few books, my very patient editor has let me nitpick to the very end.
There’s always a place that I get to that’s what I call “the pit of despair,” where I can’t figure something out, or it’s not working. If it’s a contracted book, I now have the experience of knowing that it’s merely part of my process. That doesn’t prevent me from being in the pit of despair, but I have this other part of my brain that’s saying, “Oh, here you are. This is THAT part. You’ll be here for a while.” But I know I’ll figure something out.
RVC: I want to talk about one of my favorite books, which is Ida, Always. I first heard it when Emma Ledbetter (read her OPB interview here!) read the entire thing aloud at an SCBWI conference event in Orlando some years back. She included spreads via an overhead projector, too.
CL: She was my editor.
RVC: Ah, that’s right–I remember that fact now. She clearly loved your book and was using it as an example of great writing. People in the audience were literally crying over it–not fake crying but real crying.
CL: Wow.
RVC: Please tell me how that book came about.
CL: People knew I was interested in social emotional learning for a long time, and they started asking me if I’d considered writing something that deals with death–specifically death and grief. A neighbor once asked this because their elder cat was ill. “I have no idea how to talk to my four year old about this. Have you ever thought about making a book to help with this?” Stuck with the Blooz had come out by this point and during a school visit in Newtown, Connecticut, a teacher asked me about that topic as well.
Meanwhile, I also had that notebook where Stuck with the Blooz came from, and I saw that I’d written about a moment that struck me. During playtime, a group of kindergarten students constructed an in-depth funeral for a bug. They set up seats, they gave eulogies, and at one point, somebody said, “And now we’re supposed to cry.” It was incredible.
And then my editor from Blooz who knew I was playing around with this type of idea sent me an article about Ida, the polar bear that died. Gus and Ida lived in Central Park Zoo for a very, very long time, which is also near where I grew up.
Those two things came together. It just felt like the perfect vehicle to explore the story I wanted to because while there were books about death, they tended to focus very specifically on grandparents or a pet. I wanted one that could be open for all kinds of relationships.
RVC: It’s so lucky that your editor sent that article to you. How did the writing process go?
CL: When I started, I was thinking about the story being after the death of Ida, with Gus being there, and having the main character be a child who visited Gus. I wrote many drafts that way, and it was sort of inspired by a photo and an article I’d seen. Plus, I visited Gus. It was just me and Gus hanging out when I did that.
I didn’t have an agent, by the way, but my wonderful editor was looking at this uncontracted manuscript because she wanted to publish it. Yet it wasn’t quite working. I don’t remember exactly what happened, but I’m going to give her the credit because she probably posed the question–since the story is really about the two bears, can they be the main characters?
I took the story back and spent some time making it about the two of them. That took a while. Eventually, I had a bunch of what you see now, but my editor said that we need to love their relationship before we start losing Ida. That’s when I started thinking about establishing their bond a lot more because it’s easy to think, “Well, OFCOURSE everyone’s going to be engaged and moved by someone losing someone they love,” But you need to let people feel what is precious. It’s an idea I’ve carried with me since. Make sure you’re establishing what we care about before the challenges arise.
At some point, I discovered the city was how they connect. It became not quite another character, but a representation of the connection between them.
RVC: What were some of the other challenges you were facing?
CL: It was important to me to use the word “die.” In fact, I wanted to use it twice, but that didn’t end up happening. Euphemisms have their place, for sure, but with a lot of kids, they can actually lead to more emotional difficulties because they can be taken literally. For example, “just went to sleep” can at times cause very young kids to worry about their parents “going to sleep” or themselves falling “asleep.”
It was important to me to use the correct word, but also to do it gently. I’d read the story to imagined kids to see if I felt like I was being dishonest or too harsh.
RVC: Ida, Always has serious emotional resonance. In your mind, who sets the standard for books like this? Who do you recommend when you want to show someone the true level of emotion a picture book can generate in a reader?
CL: There’s just so many people who do it well. It takes my breath away. But who comes to mind right now? A writer who surely influenced me–though I wasn’t consciously aware of it at the time–was Judith Viorst. I felt lucky that I somehow didn’t make that connection while I was writing Blooz or Ida because I realized later, “Oh, I’ve been trying to be her because her great Alexander books are about being sad. And The Tenth Good Thing About Barney is about death.”
In terms of recent books, I like Jessixa Bagley’s Boats for Papa. It’s just gorgeous, and she makes some interesting emotional choices. It’s a good example of creating characters that has enough distance from real life and events that allows a young reader to move forward emotionally into the book as opposed to feeling like they need to be protective.
RVC: Let’s talk about your new book, Feathers Together, which isn’t so much about death as it is about separation and ambiguous loss.
CL: This was a doozy. It’s the third animal book I’ve done with Charles Santoso, and we have a fourth one coming out next year that features elephants.
Feathers Together has been the hardest, longest, most tumultuous revision of any book I’ve done. And, of course, it was one of the ones that I thought was going to be the easiest.
RVC: Isn’t that always the case? Tell me more!
CL: I was very purposely trying to come up with another story that was inspired by a real-life animal that I could pitch to Emma [Ledbetter] and have Charles [Santoso] illustrate. For the first time, I was intentionally seeking an idea.
I was staying with my aunt while doing book research and she said, “This friend of mine sent me the cutest video about these ducks.” Now, there’s so many adorable animal relationship videos out there, and you could spend your life watching them, but as wonderful as they are, most don’t have a real story in them. It turned out that they weren’t ducks but rather storks, and their story was incredible. I was in love with it for so many reasons.
The real story takes place in Croatia, when a man found a female stork whose wing was injured by a poacher–she’d been shot and couldn’t fly anymore. She couldn’t get fish, and she couldn’t get up to a nest. So, the man took her in, and he created a nest for her with a ramp because they like to nest up high. What Charles created for the book is pretty close to what it really looks like.
RVC: I’m not surprised. Illustrators often do as much–or more!–research as their writer partners.
CL: She couldn’t migrate. So, the man took care of her in the winter. I’ll share the real story with you because it goes into making choices about the book.
The two storks had babies, and the human man and the male story helped her raise the babies and teach them to fly. But each year, for 19 years, this male stork would migrate to South Africa with the rest of the flock and bring the babies with him over 8000 miles and return to Croatia later when the weather was right.
This story struck me on multiple levels. It has the relationship with the human and her that was just so incredibly moving. And then there’s the forced separation, which was my primary interest. I immediately was thinking about kids that I knew and families I worked with and how they had to deal with separation from the military life, from immigration, etc. For some people, separation is just a consistent part of their lives. It’s interesting, too, that I wrote this before the pandemic.
RVC: Which created all kinds of separations.
CL: I also saw in this story a way to address gun violence because the poacher had shot her. There was the whole story of chosen families with this wonderful man Stjepan taking Malena in. The book also deals with the way injury or disability can affect relationships on both sides–not being able to do things that were planned.
At first, I tried to write all of these ideas into the same 40-page picture book. I tried to do that for months and many revisions. On maybe the fifth revision, my editor helped me realize I needed to focus on the separation. That while I can touch upon everything, I couldn’t responsibly go deeply into everything at the same time.
So, I had to let go of this huge part of the story that I’d wanted to tell and that took me a while. It was a big part of that long process.
RVC: That had to be hard.
CL: I was trying to stay true to my original vision, but it created too many stories to tell, which hearkens back to the lesson I learned with Ida about establishing the relationship first. Before you know the loss or the event that is the bulk of the story, you need to have that connection. There wasn’t enough real estate in the picture book format to go through Malena discovering and forming relationships with the human, and then forming a relationship with Klepetan and then losing him. You have to make these time frame choices for your book. What is the most important part of the story? Where does it need to actually start?
So, I changed some details as I fictionalized the story. It’s inspired by real-life animals. It’s not nonfiction, however.
RVC: That’s a huge difference.
CL: I started out with them just being friends. Then I had to make a choice, and I decided to focus on the aspect I really loved–that this was a long term, seasonal thing. These were hard choices, but I had to make them or the emotional resonance would be lost. I knew the emotional aspect that I wanted to create though getting there took SO many drafts.
RVC: Are you open to confessing to how many drafts you have for Feathers Together?
CL: It’s fair to say dozens of drafts. For sure.
Some are big revisions and other times they’re just line-level revisions. But because of the emotional aspect of this, I spend so much time on one line or one moment because that’s the thing with picture books–you’re trying to get it as succinct as possible. I’m constantly trying to get them shorter but also be nuanced.
RVC: Not an easy task.
CL: Not for me. But I love it. I love doing it. And it’s meaningful to me.
RVC: I hear you there. Now, one final question for this part of the interview. What are you working on next?
CL: Charles is now doing his part working on Mighty Muddy Us, which is our book about elephant siblings. I just saw sketches for it and WOW, they’re amazing. It’s another inspired-by-true-life animal tale about a young elephant with a birth injury and how he gets along with his older sister. It’s about that relationship and how your sibling roles get established, and how, as your relationship ages, you can get stuck in these roles, and that can cause conflict, and about how they navigate it.
I’ve got another idea I’m very excited about, but my editor hasn’t seen or heard about it yet, which is why I’m not talking about it specifically. Just crossing fingers.
RVC: Okay, Caron. It’s time for the LIGHTNINGROUND. Let’s get zippy and zoom right along. Are you ready?
CL: Let’s do it!
RVC: What outdated slang do you use on a regular basis?
CL: Geez louise.
RVC: What word do you always misspell?
CL: Oh, here’s a good one for me to confess. I can’t even say it, and I use it in my books all the time! Onomatopoeia.
RVC: What moment from a picture book do you wish were real?
CL: One of my early favorite Hans Christian Andersen stories has a little girl whose flowers are wilting, yet they come to life at night and they all dance at a ball. I always wanted to go to that ball and I think I still do.
RVC: Which picture book author would you want to write your life story?
CL: I’m going to cheat and just say Julia Sarcone-Roach because she knows me. And I know she’d be very kind. And the story would be beautiful. And there’d be lots of animals in it.
RVC: What picture book do you recommend for those who don’t normally read picture books?
CL: There’s so many. I guess…After the Fall by Dan Santat, because I feel we could all use this beautiful encouragement to climb back up the wall right now.
RVC: Six words that speak to your picture book philosophy.
CL: Seriously playful work for important people.
RVC: Thanks so much, Caron. This was a real pleasure.
Welcome to Roxanne Troup, the subject of our September Author Interview.
These days, Roxanne lives in Colorado where she writes children’s books, hikes in the mountains, and cheers on her kids at sporting events. She also “visits schools to water seeds of literacy and teach about writing. (And sometimes remembers to water the plants in her own garden.)”
In addition to being the author of more than a dozen children’s books, she’s also a ghostwriter, a work-for-hire writer, a speaker, and a history fan (“I find history fascinating because it’s full of stories. But I only realized that as an adult. As a kid, I only remembered the history I lived.”)
Need a few fun facts, too? Try these:
She’s afraid of octopuses.
She grew up in a historic home along the waterways of Missouri.
She’s a certified chocolate lover (“If they gave out licenses for this, I’d definitely have one!”)
Let’s move straight to the interview to find out more about our new writer pal!
RVC: You’ve got a very unusual story about how you discovered your love of reading. Care to share?
RT: I was an early reader. And while I don’t remember ever not reading, I vividly remember the summer I fell in love with reading. I was seven, and my little brother wasn’t too happy about it. He wanted to play imaginary games with me, not watch me read “boring books.” But I’d recently broken my neck in a tumbling accident, and after spending nearly six months in a neck brace followed by more months of physical therapy (and intermittent neck-brace-wearing), I’d gotten used to “boring.” For over a year, I couldn’t ride my bike or play on our swing set without wearing the brace. But I could read. And I read everything I could get my hands on.
RVC: Wow!
RT: During the school year, I was in the library every day. I sped through easy readers by Syd Hoff and Peggy Parrish. I checked out everything my library had by Judy Blume and Beverly Cleary. And that summer, I read whatever I could find in our house—from Disney’s Encyclopedia of Knowledge to old books like Life with Father. (And by “old,” I mean old. My dad was a teacher who couldn’t stand the thought of throwing books away, so every time his school updated their curriculum or the library updated their collection, we did too. Our attic was full of books!) Then, I stumbled upon Pippi Longstocking and The Borrowers and time disappeared. Reality melted away. I was no longer reading because I didn’t have anything else to do. I was hooked. I read those books over and over and over again.
RVC: I know exactly what you mean about reality melting way when you find the right books. It seems like you had every intention of being a lifelong educator. What appealed about the classroom?
RT: All the things I love about writing for kids: The curiosity; the creativity and resourcefulness; the humor. Kids are intuitively confident and smart. They’re artists, athletes, mathematicians, scientists, and engineers—all the things they forget they are and wish they could be as preteens. If I could help nurture that innate wonder and willingness to fail, even for a short time, I wanted to.
RVC: When did you first consider yourself to be a writer?
RT: Not until 2016. Even though I was consistently making money writing (I got my first writing-related paycheck in 2009), it wasn’t until I decided to focus on kidlit that I started calling myself a “writer.” Instead, I’d say things like “I’m doing some freelance work” or “I’m ghostwriting.” Writing was something I did to help put food on the table and gas in the car. It wasn’t who I was. It took really immersing myself in the kidlit industry (and publishing my first kid’s book) to change that perspective.
RVC: Normally, I spend more time outlining an interview subject’s career and writing arc, but I want to jump ahead here. Why? Because I’m fascinated by how you’re keeping up successful careers as a picture book author, ghostwriter, freelance writer, freelance editor, and speaker. And all without an agent. Clearly, you have a good sense of the business side of things. So, how do you balance the creative side of writing with the business side?
RT: Some days not very well. But I had an epiphany a few years ago that if I wanted to do the thing I loved (write picture books), I had to start balancing and pruning my writing activities until all the writing I did connected to children’s books/education in some way. I have an in-depth presentation on this topic that I’ve given at my local SCBWI, but essentially, I discovered my writing niche—the thing that allows me to meet my goals (get paid via writing, get published under my own name, and write something I enjoy) without draining my creative reserves or taking time away from my family. Before that, I lived at the mercy of my inbox.
RVC: Please tell me more.
RT: Not to bore anyone, but as an example: I never advertised my ghostwriting services. Still, word has a way of getting around, and after a year or two ghosting, I found myself with so many clients I couldn’t do anything else. My family began feeling the pressure and I became frustrated. My clients were needy. They came to me unprepared, and, while the whole family enjoyed my paychecks, I didn’t enjoy what I was doing. So, I raised my fees to weed out clients and maintain my earnings, which gave me more time to do what I loved. I repeated that process several times before eventually deciding I wouldn’t take on any more adult ghosting clients. (I do still ghost for a few clients/publishers I have a track record with.) Instead, I would focus on kidlit. Now I consult with one of the most prestigious ghosting firms in the nation—working almost exclusively on picture books. I have more time. I still get paid to write, and it’s good practice doing what I love. I’ve done that in each of my freelance service areas, and while there are still days that feel more “business‑y” and less “kidlit‑y” and creative than I like, publishing is a business that requires both. So, I just remind myself of that and work toward a better-for-me balance the next day. And on the days I don’t have anything pressing, I work on my own projects. It’s still not a perfect balance, but it is getting better.
RVC: If you had to make a pie chart or Venn diagram to show your writing career right now, what would it look like?
RT: Nothing in real life is this neat and tidy, but in general, I spend the bulk of my writing time on…
RVC: How many different projects are you typically working on at any one moment?
RT: It varies from week to week (and I tend to think/schedule in monthly chunks), so I’m not exactly sure how to answer this except to say—several.
Some of my work is seasonal, like writing websites for schools. Other stuff is tied to publishing cycles—like my upcoming picture book release—so even though it’s on my calendar, the work I need to do for it is sporadic. I nearly always have two or three different freelance projects in various stages of development on my monthly calendar, as well as trade market research and submissions to track (and, on occasion, contract negotiations!). Depending on the season, I may also have education market projects happening—but when I do, I try to limit the amount of time I dedicate to freelance gigs. I’m still building my income stream for speaking, so that piece of the pie is also sporadic. Everything considered, it’s unusual if I don’t have a least one writing-related deadline each week.
RVC: Let’s talk books. This year, you’ve got not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, but 6!!! kidlit books coming out this fall. These aren’t traditional trade books, but rather work-for-hire. Please explain the difference.
RT: Trade books are the books you’re familiar with; you find them in bookstores and associate each one to a specific author. Typically, that author has created the book from scratch and “sold” it to a publisher. (Publishers don’t actually buy books/manuscripts. They purchase “rights” to a work—like the exclusive right to publish and sell a work in English, or the right to create an audiobook of the work, etc. Each of these rights is negotiated in a contract between the creator and the publisher, but unless sold, the copyright always remains with the creator.) Often, creators receive an advance against royalties for these books, and since they receive a royalty off every book sold, they’re heavily invested in marketing and promotion.
Work-for-hire books are different—from the copyright level up. Work-for-hire is a copyright term that means, “work made on behalf of another, in which the commissioner owns the copyright.” (That’s my layman’s definition.) It’s sometimes referred to as “work made for hire” or WFH. Work-for-hire can be anything from ghostwriting to the creative work you do as an employee. But in all WFH, the individual or company that hires you to create the work owns the copyright to whatever you created. Once the work is completed and you are paid, the individual or company can do what they like with that work—edit it, publish it, sell it, whatever—it belongs to them. Sometimes the creator gets credit for works made for hire. Sometimes they don’t. In general, WFH writers are paid a flat-fee for their work, and thus are not expected to promote it.
RVC: Thanks for the explanation here. How does WFH work in kidlit?
RT: In kidlit, work-for-hire typically involves two markets: the education market and IP, or intellectual property. The education market is work created for (and sold to) schools and libraries. Publishers generate the ideas for these books/series based on school curriculum and market need. They’re not typically available in bookstores, but authors do get credit for them. And since educational publishers have established relationships/reputations with the schools and libraries that purchase these books, authors can expect that lots and lots of kids will read their work.
The IP market includes anything an author didn’t think up themselves. It can be a series cooked up by a publisher/packager to meet a market demand, ghostwriting, or a book featuring licensed characters like Spider-Man. IP books are generally sold in bookstores alongside other trade books. And, for the author, can range from flat-fee to royalty-based contracts (though you should expect any royalty to be lower than what you’d receive from a work you thought up and created yourself). These books sell really well! Some of your favorite series might even be on the list.
If you’re interested in learning more about work-for-hire writing, specifically in the education market, I have an article on LinkedIn you might enjoy.
RVC: What are some of the unexpected benefits of writing work-for-hire kidlit?
RT: WFH is a great source of additional income. Unlike trade projects, WFH is a guaranteed sale/paycheck. It keeps me writing (which we all know is a necessary part of improving craft) and gives me experience working with and thinking like editors. It builds my portfolio and can give me books for use in soliciting author visits. And because WFH is generally flat-fee, I’m not expected to participate in marketing—which, especially this year with six books coming out in one season, is a relief. (Can you imagine having to promote six books at once!?!?)
RVC: I sure hope so since I’ve got six coming out next year. Let’s talk about that later! Now, how are you getting these deals without an agent?
RT: With the exception of IP projects, most agents don’t handle WFH deals. The flat-fee model just isn’t worth it for them. So, I contact publishers/packagers directly with a submissions packet. A WFH submissions packet includes a cover letter expressing your interest and areas of expertise, a resume/CV, and targeted writing samples. The publisher keeps your info on file and contacts you with projects that fit your experience and/or samples.
RVC: What about the ghostwriting gigs?
RT: The ghostwriting I do for adults has all happened organically. The kidlit ghostwriting I do comes both organically and through the firm I consult with. I’d love to get more licensed character IP work—especially in the early reader and chapter book markets—but from what I understand, those jobs typically route through an agent or established editorial relationships.
RVC: Are you actively seeking an agent?
RT: Yes and no. I don’t currently have anything out with agents, but if I see that someone is reopening to subs or has a specific wish list item that fits what I create, I don’t hesitate to query. I’m just not spending a ton of time researching agents or sending them work. I’m not opposed to working with an agent—I’d love to be able to walk through the doors an agent can open for me—I’m just not waiting around for one either. I know, whether I have an agent or not, my career is in my hands.
RVC: What’s the most common misconception about work-for-hire work?
RT: That it’s a fast and easy “back door” into publishing. While WFH timelines are shorter (books typically release a year or less after contract), the work itself does not require any less effort. Good writing is good writing regardless of genre or sales avenue. And readers are readers. They deserve for authors to be just as meticulous with research, just as purposeful with word choice and mechanics, just as enthusiastic and creative (if appropriate) with WFH as any other contract.
RVC: You’re doing a lot of adult work, too, with your writing. In what ways does that affect your kidlit efforts?
RT: I do try to limit the amount of adult work I’m taking on so I don’t completely derail my kidlit efforts. But even adult projects are beneficial. The paychecks I get for adult freelance work helps subsidize the work I really want to do. It also improves my writing craft and marketing skills. To succeed in this industry, I have to be able to transfer thought to page in a coherent manner. I also have to be able to “sell” myself and/or my work to agents, editors, booksellers, parents, teachers who might want to invite me into the classroom, and all sorts of other “gate keepers” (which is really just an ominous-sounding phrase for book buyers.) And all those things take practice. Adult freelance forces me to practice.
RVC: This is a picture book blog, so I have to ask this—what’s the story of your first published picture book, My Grandpa, My Tree, and Me (Yeehoo Press, March 2023)?
RT: Somewhere on social media, I saw a post about a new publisher. I went to their website and saw they were looking for agricultural books so I started researching. When I ran across a YouTube video of a farmer harvesting pecans, I knew I had my topic. I couldn’t get the image of the farmer shaking that tree out of my head—all those pecans falling like torrential rain.
Growing up in a farming community, I had some experience with agriculture and pecans. But no one I knew harvested pecans by tractor. We gathered pecans like the wild products they were, not from hundreds of trees at a time. This dichotomy provided the structure of the story, and my first draft came together quickly.
Unfortunately, I was the most experienced writer in my critique group and started submitting before I should have. I sent the manuscript to four different publishers with no response. On the fifth try an editor saw enough potential in the work to request an R&R (revise and resubmit). I didn’t agree with the direction they wanted me to take the story, but tried to figure out what underlying issue they were pointing out. Eventually I realized my draft was too “education market‑y.” I had to figure out how to make it work for the trade market. I went back to work and a month or so later had an opportunity to submit my new draft to the wonderful Katie Heit at Scholastic. The story was too quiet for Scholastic’s list, but she was so complimentary I knew I’d hit the right note with my revisions. I spent the next year-and-a-half submitting, but now, I was getting responses.
I finally found my publisher in May of ’21—Yeehoo Press. Yeehoo pubs picture books that work for both the US and Chinese markets, so my informational fiction was perfect for them. Four months later, it was official. My first trade PB was under contract!
Yeehoo contracted Kendra Binney to illustrate. Her soft watercolors were the perfect pairing for my lyrical text. I’m excited for its upcoming cover reveal!
RVC: What was the most valuable lesson that book taught you?
RT: To be patient—and keep working. Good writers get turned down all the time. Published writers get turned down, too. But as cliché as it sounds, it really does take just one “yes.” Publishing is a partnership. You have to be patient to find the perfect partner for your particular story, and you have to keep working to make sure your story is the perfect fit for a particular publisher.
RVC: Please talk about the role of community in your writing life.
RT: When I first started writing kidlit, I couldn’t justify the cost of writing classes or even an SCBWI membership. But I joined Laura Purdie Salas’ Facebook group for writers (now defunct) and started lurking and learning. Laura taught me a ton—just by following her career and reading her comments on people’s posts. She was so helpful and kind, but also honest. When she created Writing for the Educational Market, I knew it would be practical and encouraging, just like her. I purchased it immediately and got my first book contract shortly thereafter. I highly recommend her workshop-in-a-book to everyone interested in the education market. It’s full of info I couldn’t find anywhere else. (And believe me; I looked!)
RVC: Thanks to your rec, I just ordered a copy myself. Watch out, educational market!
RT: After a few WFH books, I wanted to jump the fence, so to speak, into the trade market. Laura’s career convinced me it was possible, but I needed to find a regular critique group—not just occasional online swapping partners. So, I joined SCBWI and started getting involved in my local group. It was so refreshing to find people who got what I was trying to do. They understood the struggles of writing kidlit, but also the joy of finally finishing a decent draft.
Today, I co-lead that group. And over the years, I’ve come to realize how incredibly generous and supportive the entire kidlit community is—if you are willing to put in the work.
RVC: What’s your most important good writing habit or routine?
RT: To write—whether I feel like it or not. I can’t wait for the muse to strike. I have deadlines. I have to get something on the page. If it’s no good, I can edit it. But I can’t edit a blank page. Eventually, if I put in the work, I’ll have something I’m proud of.
RVC: Lastly, what advice do you give to aspiring picture book writers?
RT: Learn the business and take the time to develop your craft. While writing may be creative, publishing is a business. You have to get both right to be successful. How? Read. A lot. Write even more. And find a group of creatives who can help you get better (not just those who will gush over whatever you create).
RVC: One final question for this part of the interview. Beyond the six work-for-hire books coming out this fall, what’s something upcoming that you’re really excited about?
RT: My debut trade picture book releases in March. That’s really exciting! (As a newbie, I’m still not sure what all that will entail, but I’m doing my best to learn as I go.) And I just signed a contract for another trade picture book slated for Spring 2024.
RVC: Congrats on that, Roxanne. But now the first part of the interview is over. Now it’s time for…the…LIGHTNING…ROUND!!! Are you ready?
RT: Ready.
RVC: What secret talent do you have that few would expect?
RT: I randomly remember lines to songs and movies from my childhood and use them in everyday life. When my children are being overly emotional—“Calm yourself, Iago” (in the voice of Jafar from Disney’s Aladdin). When my mother-in-law finally goes home—“I think we’re alone now” (from Tommy James and the Shondells). When someone asks me a stupid question—“It’s possible, pig” (as Westley from The Princess Bride)—though not always out loud!
RVC: Pick a theme song that describes where your life is at right now.
RT: “The Hustle” by Van McCoy.
RVC: What picture book author would you want to write YOUR life story?
RT: She doesn’t write nonfiction, but Beth Ferry. I love everything she creates.
RVC: Five things you can’t do your work without.
RT: A computer and Internet connection, Microsoft Office, a big desk calendar, and the library.
RVC: Who sets the standard for picture books about history?
RT: Oh gosh. There are so many really good ones … Barb Rosenstock.
RVC: What’s the best compliment a child ever gave you or your books?
RT: Now, I get it!
RVC: Thanks so much, Roxanne! And for those of you who read to the very end, OPB has a treat for you. Watch for an OPB cover reveal this week for Roxanne’s forthcoming picture book, My Grandpa, My Tree, and Me!
This month’s Author Interview is with Linda Elovitz Marshall, who’s a “writer of books for young children and other cool stuff.” I know her from a previous critique group and from Jane Yolen’s Picture Book Boot Camp. With all the success Linda’s having lately, it seems the right time to find out why.
RVC: Let’s start with the Big News. You’ve got a new picture book coming out in a few days—Measuring a Year: A Rosh Hashanah Story. What’s the elevator pitch?
LM: No matter what you celebrate or how you count, every year has a beginning and an ending. Considering that the Jewish New Year–Rosh Hashanah–is a time of introspection, of looking inward, I wondered…How could anyone measure a year? Specifically, how could a CHILD measure a year?
RVC: How did that story come about?
LM: I was sitting in the synagogue with my son and his family during a High Holiday service. When it was time for the sermon, the sanctuary became solemn, hushed. Cantor Jodi Schectman–who had only recently taken her position at Congregation Beth Emeth in Albany, New York–came to the bimah (the pulpit). She hummed a melody. I recognized the tune but couldn’t quite place it. She stopped humming and talked about changes in her life–selling her house in New Jersey, sending her youngest off to college, taking a new job in Albany. She hummed a few more bars. Then asked, rhetorically, “So, how DO you measure a year?” She described more changes in her life. Then she shared with the congregation that she’d been diagnosed with a Stage IV cancer. Once more, she asked, “How DO you measure a year?”
RVC: Wow.
LM: How DO you? I wondered. How does anyone? How does a child? What are the good things? The not-so-good? I wanted to take the lessons of Cantor Schectman’s powerful sermon…and share them with the world. And so I did. Measuring a Year: A Rosh Hashanah Story is dedicated to the memory of Cantor Jodi Schectman.
RVC: Measuring a Year is illustrated by Zara González Hoang. What did she bring to this powerful story?
LM: Zara’s beautiful illustrations brought much humor and warmth to the story. She also beautifully tied the text into the annual cycle of Jewish holidays.
RVC: Let’s circle back to the beginning. Rumor has it that you were speaking in full sentences before you were a year old. Reality or myth?
LM: It must be true. Why would I ever dispel such a myth? Truth is, I didn’t walk until I was almost two years old. Meanwhile, I listened and absorbed a lot. When I started talking, I had a lot to say.
RVC: When did you first discover you had a gift for writing?
LM: In fifth grade, I wrote a story about my new baby sister. My teacher suggested I might become a writer. But it wasn’t until decades later that I actually began writing professionally. In the interim, I had numerous careers, from owning a bookstore to capturing oral histories to raising sheep.
RVC: What kind of formal training did you have as a writer?
LM: None. However, I always read a lot. I’m also fortunate to have a good ear for language. Most importantly (and probably most under-rated), I had teachers who taught grammar. I highly recommend reading (and re-reading) The Elements of Style by Strunk and White. It’s a great handbook for writers.
RVC: Since you’re a lover of words, it’s no surprise you ran your own bookshop. How did that happen?
LM: An opportunity came–and I grabbed it! That was shortly after I’d left my Ph.D. program in Anthropology. I still had children home and I was doing oral histories and writing articles for magazines (freelance). My bookstore began as a spinoff of my father’s bargain business (the late, great Building #19, Inc whose story is told in my self-published biography of my father, Good Stuff Cheap: The Story of Jerry Ellis and Building #19.)
I soon transformed it into my own store–BOOKSFORBEANS, INC. With a background in early childhood education, I specialized in books for teachers and children. And with my background in the bargain business, I made sure to sell good stuff, cheap!
RVC: What’s the story behind your first picture book sale?
LM: I was ringing the register in my bookstore when a customer said something that sparked an idea. That idea led to another idea…which led to another idea…and the idea of a story was born.
Eventually, I attended a conference for children’s book writers where I presented two manuscripts to an editor for critiques. She didn’t like either. I asked what she didn’t like about them. She told me. I listened. I revised, then sent the stories back to her with a note saying something like, “Thank you for helping me with these stories.” About a week later, that editor acquired both of my stories!
RVC: You’re well known for being a big-time reviser. What does your process look like?
LM: I try to listen…and learn. I want my words to flow, to sound beautiful. But more importantly, the story has to work. Sometimes, I share my works-in-progress with my critique groups. Sometimes, I don’t. I often show my work to my husband. He’s usually my very first reader…and he’s a very good one!
RVC: What’s your relationship with critique groups?
LM: I LOVE my critique groups. Right now, I’m in three, each with a different focus and style. I also enjoy critiquing privately. I served as Picture Book Mentor for my SCBWI chapter. In addition, I’m one of the Rate Your Story judges. I’m always delighted to work with new writers!
RVC: What can you tell us about the importance of community in a writer’s life?
LM: Community is so important, especially for writers. We give each other strength and buoy each other up when things are down. There are many times when things don’t go smoothly–when there’s rejection after rejection after rejection. Having a community of writers is a great balm. Sometimes, it’s even better than ice cream!
RVC: Complete the following sentence. “Linda Marshall is a writer who…”
LM: Linda Marshall is a writer who cares. She cares about accuracy, about kindness, about children, and about making the world a better place…in whatever way she can.
RVC: You have some clear throughlines in your picture books. What are those, and how important are they to you?
I put my heart into my writing…and try to make the world better.
RVC: Who sets the standard for nonfiction picture book writing?
LM: I learned about writing non-fiction picture books from the great editor Carolyn Yoder. She taught me to apply Ph.D.-quality research to my work for children. I love research–and I love her lesson! Thank you, again, Carolyn Yoder!
RVC: In all your experience as a picture book author, what has most surprised you?
LM: The children’s writing community is wonderfully kind and open. To my surprise, it’s made me kinder, too. I’m very grateful for that.
RVC: What’s your best tip for aspiring picture book writers?
LM: Read, read, read. Read GOOD stuff, stuff that makes you feel. Pay attention to the flow of words. Pay attention to your emotions. Pay attention to the world around. Feel. Be aware. And never lose your sense of wonder. Or your sense of possible. Or, of course, your sense of humor.
RVC: One last question for this part of the interview. It’s brag time! What cool new things should we expect from you in the future?
There’s one more but (shhh….) as of today, it’s not yet been announced.
RVC: Alright, Linda. It’s time for the SPEEDROUND. Fast questions followed by fast answers. Are you ready?
LM: Yes!
RVC: What is your biggest time waster?
LM: I check my email far too often. Hey, you never know when something good might pop in!
RVC: What animal or plant should be renamed?
LM: Shrub. What a yucky name! Like someone who can’t keep his pants up. You know, what a shrub that guy is…
RVC: You’re having a literary brunch. Which three writers (dead or alive) would you invite?
LM: Mark Twain, Sappho, and (of course) Jane Yolen.
RVC: What’s your favorite Jane Yolen picture book?
LM: No fair! That’s like asking which of my children is my favorite. I love Mrs. Noah’s Doves. It’s beautiful the way Jane Yolen spins a story–kind and sensitive and a bit magical. And, oh, her language! Pure poetry!
RVC: Five things you can’t do your job without?
LM: I need my computer (or a pen and paper), empty space to stare into, quiet, enthusiasm for my topic, and a bit of dark chocolate.
RVC: Best compliment a kid ever gave you (or your books)?
LM: The best–the absolute best–was when my husband overheard our grandson talking to his friends. One friend said his grandmother is a doctor, the other said his grandfather is a doctor. Our grandson proudly announced that his grandmother is a “writer…and she’s coming to our school!”
This month’s Author Interview is with Jocelyn Watkinson. The idea for her debut picture book–The Three Canadian Pigs: A Hockey Story, which releases in August 2022–didn’t come out of nowhere. She’s from Canada, after all! Plus, she attended a lot of hockey games to see her little brother play goalie for the local rep hockey team. (Yeah, she brought along books and read in the stands the whole time, she admits!)
Today, Jocelyn lives in California, where she:
plays soccer
enjoys board games
sips hot tea
refurbishes old furniture
To find out more about her and her debut picture book, let’s get to the interview!
RVC: We have to start things off with the #1 question that everyone has. On a scale of 5 to 5,000, how much do you miss Tim Horton’s double double?
JW: Haha–great lead question! Can I answer infinity??
For those that don’t know, a “double double” is a coffee with two creams and two sugars–known to be the most popular order at Timmies! But since I am a non-coffee drinker (crazy, eh?), I only drink tea. But there is no comparison to Tim Horton’s Steeped Tea, which I miss dearly!
RVC: Since I’m a fellow non-coffee-drinker, I fully appreciate your answer. But let’s circle back to the beginning. What’s the story of how you got interested in writing?
JW: The short version of the story is that my husband got hired at a California university as a professor so we would be moving to the United States. Because of visa reasons and employment restrictions at the time, I was ineligible to work, so I found writing to keep me busy! Right before we made our move south of the border, our dog George got sick and we had to put him down. With all the hectic moving plans, the grief didn’t sink in until I was sitting alone in my new California apartment. For some reason, the idea of a kids book to help deal with the loss of a dog came to me, and for some reason, in rhyme! (Bad rhyme, I’ll admit!) That book is now firmly on the shelf but it got me into the kidlit world, so it definitely will always have a special place in my heart.
RVC: By “on the shelf,” you mean something like “tucked away in a drawer, never to be seen again,” right? To me, “on the shelf” means available in book form at Amazon or my local indie (which for me is Bookstore1Sarasota).
JW: Exactly.
RVC: Gotcha. At what point did you decide you were going to get serious about publishing kidlit?
JW: I decided to finally go to a SCBWI conference. I arrived and thought “yes…this is where I’m meant to be!” I also won a raffle for a one-on-one with an agent and felt like that was a big sign of encouragement from the universe. 😊
RV: Congrats on that!
JW: The advice I gained from the conference helped guide me to a few critique groups and ultimately to Renée LaTulippe’s Rhyme and Meter course (which is an absolute MUST if you are going to write in rhyme) where I learned meter (the real trick to writing in rhyme) and the proper way to rhyme. Once I felt confident in these craft skills was when I felt like I was getting pretty serious about it.
JW: I love fractured fairytales. I find them to be so fun and creative. I happened to be working on a different idea and was bouncing the idea off my mom. Then she just blurted out, “You should re-write the three little pigs, but make them Canadian!” So, I have to completely owe the idea to her (thanks Mom!).
As soon as I figured out that the wolf would want to eat their Canadian bacon, the puns just started flowing.
RVC: What are you most proud of regarding this book?
JW: I think just the perseverance of how many edits it took to get it to where it is now and not stopping until it was just right. I think I had 47 versions of this story. When writing in rhyme, you’re constantly tweaking to make sure your readers don’t trip over your words.
RVC: If you could go back and do one thing differently to get you to that debut book deal faster, what would it be?
JW: I don’t think I could have got this book any faster, to be honest. I am absolutely an outlier when it comes to this. I have been so lucky in this industry so far and have a lot of people to owe my success to.
RVC: Tell me more about what happened.
JW: Once I had the idea mostly flushed out, I reached out to Shannon Stocker who I hired for her professional critique services. I met her the year prior when I didn’t get a PBChat Mentorship that I applied for but was awarded a critique from her. After some very helpful feedback, I applied to the PBChat Mentorship program in 2020 and was selected as a mentee by Lori Degman! She was amazing to work with and whipped my manuscript into shape.
Then as a finale to the mentorship, we had a showcase where agents and editors were invited to shop through our work. I didn’t get any interest until the very last day where Sarah Rockett from Sleeping Bear Press requested to see the manuscript. Then within a month, I was told we had a deal! I think that’s pretty fast compared to industry standards!
RVC: So, you like to write in rhyme (I know this from your social media names such as “Jocelynwritesinrhyme”). I’m a big fan of rhyme—I just wrote an article on that very thing for Writer’s Digest, in fact! What are some of the top tips I should’ve included in that article?
JW: I think any seasoned rhymer will tell you that rhyming isn’t for the faint hearted. Be prepared to work and work and work at it until readers don’t trip over any parts of your story while reading aloud. This takes tons of practice, patience, and wonderful critique partners. Also, another plug to take a rhyme and meter course and learn the craft. Check out Renée LaTulippe’s variety of rhyme and meter courses if you want to learn the right way to rhyme. She also has some great YouTube videos.
RVC: What’s something about your writing process that might surprise people?
JW: When I get an idea for a story, I come up with key words and then make a list of words that rhyme with them and see what kind of lines come to mind, then I start to build out the story from there.
RVC: What special strategies do you use for overcoming writer’s block?
JW: First, to write in rhyme, and goofy rhyme at that, I need to be in a mood that matches. I tend to listen to Adam Sandler, The Lonely Island, or any artist that sings funny songs–their silliness can really start to get the juices flowing.
RVC: You’re not sitting on your laurels—you’ve already got another picture book deal. And a collaboration, no less.
JW: Oh, yes! I am very excited about that. At the end of my mentorship with Lori Degman, I pitched the idea of a sequel to her Travel Guide for Monsters book which came out with Sleeping Bear Press in April 2020. The book follows a group of monsters across the US visiting all the iconic landmarks. I remember seeing that book when she was promoting it, before we even knew each other and remembering how clever it was and the illustrations were so amazing. So, during our mentorship, I thought it would be great if the monsters could also go through Canada!
I can’t believe that she agreed to take a look at what I had written so far, but she did and then we pitched it back to Sleeping Bear Press (again with Sarah Rockett) and they agreed to publish it! It was quite serendipitous how it all came together; the mentorship, the book deal, and how the previous book lined up with the same editor and sequel, etc.
RVC: That’s an amazing story. Now, one last thing before we get to the final part of the interview. What are you working on these days?
JW: Building my portfolio so I can be successful in querying an agent. But my current WIP is called The Cantankerous Canker…not quite sure where I’m going with it yet but “cantankerous” is becoming my new favorite word!
RVC: Good luck with the agent search, but now it’s time for the LIGHTNINGROUND! Zippy quick answers and zappy fast answers. Ready?
JW: Oh ya, fer sure!
RVC: #1 Canadian expression that Americans just can’t appreciate.
JW: I gotta go with the classic “Eh!” It is pretty iconic when you think of Canadians but it is so versatile.
Want someone to agree with you? Say “Eh?”
Need clarification on something? Say “Eh?”
Just really excited about something? Work “Eh!” into your sentence.
RVC: What word do you always misspell?
JW: “Convenience.” Did I get it right?? I always have to say “CON-VEN-I-ENCE”
RVC: If you built a themed hotel, what theme would you use?
JW: Probably something sports or board-game themed. I love board game nights with friends!
The June 2022 Author Interview came about as a fortuitous accident, of sorts. I recently attended the FLSCBWI conference in Orlando (my roundup post on that is here) and completely at random, I ended up at Pat Zietlow Miller’s lunch table at the Hilton Orlando/Lake Buena Vista not once but twice! Pat’s interesting stories there in addition to her terrific keynote and panel discussions told me that she HAD to be the subject of the next Author Interview.
While Bruce Coville is indicating that he’s the star of this photo, the yellow arrow is correctly identifying that the proper focus is Pat Zietlow Miller. 🙂
I’m not at all ashamed to admit that I used the Wisconsiner-to-Wisconsiner secret connection to make this interview happen. (I mentioned cheese curds, supper clubs, and Friday fish fries–in that exact order.) And it worked! Unsurprisingly, Pat even emailed me the Monday after the conference before I had a chance to follow up with her with an official invitiation to be on OPB. Talk about being a pro!
Now, you probably already know all about Pat Zietlow Miller, but here’s a very quick refresher…
She wanted to be a writer ever since her seventh-grade English teacher read her paper about square-dancing skirts out loud in class and said: “This is the first time anything a student has written has given me chills.”
She started out as a newspaper reporter and wrote about everything from dartball and deer-hunting to diets and découpage. Then, she joined an insurance company–and then another–and edited their newsletters and magazines.
These days, Pat focuses on her favorite thing–writing picture books. She’s sold 23 books and is always working on more.
She has one wonderful husband, two delightful daughters, and two well-pampered cats.
Pat’s favorite things are:
Colors – Purple and blue.
Animals – Cats and kittens.
Food – Potatoes, served almost any way. And dark chocolate. (But separately, not mixed in with the potatoes.) And a really good omelet.
Flowers – Tulips and pansies.
Activities – Reading. Walking around exploring new places. Singing along to the radio. Learning new things.
With that, let’s zip ahead to the interview to hear from my new Wisconsin buddy herself. Onward!
RVC: Like so many kidlit writers, it seems as if you had an important early experience with a teacher that really got things going for you.
PZM: I had a couple teachers that were amazingly supportive of me early on. The first was in fourth grade where our teacher had us keep a journal. We’d write little things based on prompts, and then she’d make comments. These were just two- or three-paragraph things, but I remember my fourth-grade teacher, Chloe Wandschneider, telling me that I was an excellent writer. I remember being so proud.
When I went to high school, I had several teachers that were great, too. I had a journalism advisor when I wrote for the school paper, and he was amazing and encouraging, though also really hard on me–he really pushed me. Then I had another teacher who told me that my work reminded her of Nora Ephron, which is probably the best compliment I ever got in my entire life because Nora Ephron is amazing.
So, yeah, I feel like throughout my entire career, I had teachers that supported me and encouraged me.
RVC: I love it when teachers make such a difference. Now, what were some of the things you were reading back then?
After my teacher said that my writing reminded her of Nora Ephron, I read everything she’d ever written because I didn’t know who she was. Doing so much reading made me a much better writer.
RVC: You’re one of the few writers I’ve interviewed here who’s talked about Encyclopedia Brown. That was one of my early favorites, too. That and The Great Brain.
PZM: I should have mentioned The Great Brain. I read ALLThe Great Brain books.
RVC: Yeah, those are amazing. But let’s talk about the transition from when you went from being a student to being a professional writer.
PZM: When I started going to school at UW-Oshkosh. I thought I was going to be a sports writer for the Chicago Tribune–that was my goal. I’d been a sports editor of my high school paper, I’d won some sports writing awards from the local press association, and I’d worked part time through high school and college at my local daily newspaper as a sports writer. I covered American Legion baseball games and got paid $10 to cover doubleheaders and I thought I was rich!
RVC: I can imagine. Ten buckeroonis was a lot to a kid back then.
PZM: At college, I double majored in English because I loved English, too. Honestly, it never occurred to me that I could have a book published because I didn’t know anybody who did. I mean, it just seemed like those couldn’t be real people. So, I graduated and worked as a full-time sportswriter in Wisconsin for a while.
I did try writing a picture book while I was in college just for fun, because I was still reading them. I sent it off to one publisher. I just picked a publisher’s address at random, and I mailed it off. I got a rejection. Writing more picture books wasn’t something I was seriously thinking would be my career. That didn’t happen until I was 39 when I wondered, “ ‘Okay, why couldn’t it be my career?” At that point, I was older and more mature. The internet existed. I knew I could figure it out.
RVC: Here at OPB, I run into quite a few journalists who moved into kidlit after making a name for themselves in newspapers and/or magazines, but you’re the first I can recall who did sports writing. What appealed about sports writing?
PZM: My dad got Sports Illustrated when I was growing up, and I read everything in it. Jill Lieber from Neenah, Wisconsin, wrote for them. I grew up in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. I remember thinking how cool it was that she was the only woman who wrote for Sports Illustrated, and she was 30 minutes from my house. That showed me that maybe it’d be possible for me.
I also read Frank Deford and Rick Reilly and I just loved how they put words together. They were such good writers. It inspired me, and I was already a big sports fan. I watched the [Green Bay] Packers and the [Milwaukee] Bucks. I was really into sports at that point. I liked the idea of combining the two things [sports and writing] together.
RVC: What’s the best lesson from being a sportswriter that you use on a regular basis in your kidlit?
PZM: Don’t get annoyed when someone edits your copy.
Back then, I wrote up my story, it’d go off to the sports editor, he’d do whatever he did with it, and then it’d go to the copy desk, and they did whatever they did to it, and I learned pretty quickly to take the edits. I’d look at it and say, “How can I do better next time so they don’t have to edit it as much?” I got very good at writing stories that could get through their process. It made me a better writer. I also learned how to write quickly and not be overly precious about it because I had a deadline. That helps a lot, too. These days, I can sit down and crank out at least a solid first draft.
RVC: How many years were you in the insurance business?
PZM: 29 years. It’s somewhere I never thought I’d end up. I worked in communications the whole time, so at least it was writing or editing. There was a brief time when I tried to be an actual insurance person and worked in underwriting. That was a dismal failure.
Underwriting is a great career path, but it’s not MY career path.
RVC: Gotcha. But these days, your only job is writing, right?
PZM: For almost a year now.
RVC: What’s the most surprising thing about it?
PZM: I have a huge sense of relief.
RVC: How so?
PZM: Working at an insurance company was a great career path for my family, and I worked with great people, and I learned a lot. I’m also incredibly well insured for a writer because I learned a lot about insurance. But I have such a sense of relief that I’m not in corporate meetings anymore. I’m not listening to people talk and thinking How can you possibly be using that jargon? and editing what they’re saying in my head. So, that’s huge.
RVC: I thought I was the only person who edited others in my own head. Whew!
PZM: The second thing is that I can set my own schedule. I don’t have to work from eight to five. I don’t have to get dressed up to go to work, unless it’s for a Zoom meeting, so I can wear whatever I want to wear. It’s a great sense of freedom to be able to work on what makes me happy whenever and however I feel inspired to do so.
RVC: Let’s talk about writerly routines. What does a typical day look like for you as a writer?
PZM: When I started, I thought I should have a routine. I felt guilty for not having one for a while, like I was doing this wrong. Then I realized that as long as I got my stuff done, it didn’t matter if I had a routine or not.
I always knew I wasn’t a morning person and working on my own has cemented that fact. So, I no longer try to get up at the crack of dawn. Instead, I get up around 9:30 or 10am. That works for me, unless I have to be someplace. Then I usually go through my email because a lot of my time is responding to things that people send me–questions, requests from editors, or whatever.
RVC: I often tell my students–who don’t always believe me–that at this point in my career, about 60–70% of my “writing time” is actually spent on the business of writing instead of the fun writing.
PZM: Yes! That’s true. I’m pretty active on social media, too. I have to figure out What am I going to post today? And What am I going to respond to? This year, especially because I’ve got five books coming out, a lot of my time has been going to promotion. I’m always doing an interview or a blog post or being on a panel or something. With the time that’s left, I sit down and think What do I have to revise for an editor?
I hope to make a little more time to focus on creating new things because some days it feels like an afterthought. It really should be one of my first things. I’m trying to do better.
RVC: How many current projects do you have?
PZM: I’ve got three things that are currently out on sub that editors are looking at but haven’t sold and they haven’t responded to yet. I think they’re done. Of course, if I don’t get a good response, I’ll go back and work on them more.
I’ve got three things that I’m also revising that editors haven’t offered on. But they’ve said, Hey, if you make these tweaks, I’d like to see it again. So, I’ve got to go back and revise. I’ve also got three or four ideas of new stuff that I want to write. Altogether, that’s probably like nine or ten things in total floating around.
RVC: When you first started off, were you using an agent?
PZM: I sold Sophie’s Squash without an agent, unsolicited through the slush pile, which obviously limited the number of places I could send it. I think I sold it on maybe one of the very last places that I could have sent it to!
RVC: That’s yet another argument for sticking with a project you believe in.
PZM: After I sold Sophie’s Squash, I did get an agent. An aspiring writer friend of mine–Jessica Vitalis, who now has a great middle grade out–said, “You really have to try to get an agent.” She pushed me, so that’s what I did. It was the best advice I could have gotten because having an agent makes my publishing life so much easier.
RVC: Let’s talk about the making of Sophie’s Squash.
PZM: I wrote an early draft of it, then I worked it through my critique group. I even paid for a couple of professional critiques. One of the women doing a paid critique, Jill Esbaum, said–and I think these were her exact words–“This is gold!” But then she basically told me I needed to redo the plot and have a better ending. So, I rewrote it, and started sending it out. I got a lot of rejections. I got a lot of close calls, too, with little notes saying, “This is cute, but not for us.” It made it to acquisitions twice but didn’t get picked up.
I had different versions of it. I had one version that was a little more happy, and I had one version that was a little more sad. When it finally sold, I didn’t remember which version I had sent to that particular editor.
RVC: Hah! I’ve been there.
PZM: That story alone probably got 15 to 20 rejections before it sold. I got 126 rejections overall on everything I was sending out before I sold my first story, but Sophie’s Squash got 15 or 20.
RVC: Wow, thanks for sharing that. I worry early-career writers get upset and feel like quitting when they hit double-digit rejections. Since you’re being so open and honest, I’m going to ask a hard question. Here it comes–are you still getting rejected these days?
PZM: Oh, all the time. Just last week, I got probably four rejections because I’ve got stuff out on sub[mission]. The rejections are usually nicer. My agent will send me what the editor said, which is something like I’m a good writer but that they didn’t connect with it or they didn’t love it or they couldn’t see a vision of it.
I’ve always been good about rejections. I mean, they’re no fun, but they’ve never totally messed me up or made me question my place in the world. They’re just part of the process. I think that’s a good way to look at it. They’re just part of the road you go down until you find somebody who loves your story as much as you do.
RVC: But even if an agent or editor loves your story, they’re still going to want changes.
PZM: I think that when people get into publishing, a lot of them don’t realize how much they’re going to have to revise even after an editor buys the story and loves it. You still spend a ton of time revising. You’ve got to be okay with it. You can’t say, “How DARE they question this beautiful, perfect thing that I wrote!” There are so many different ways you can tell the story effectively.
RVC: What about those who think that revising a story makes it less theirs? I hear that worry/complaint a lot.
PZM: That’s wrong because you’re the one revising it. You’re wondering, thinking, choosing how to change it. It’s still YOUR story.
RVC: Which of your books had the most rigorous revision process?
RVC: How many of those happened after you signed a contract?
PZM: The editor who pulled Sophie’s Squash from the slush pile, Stephanie Pitts, asked me if I’d write a book about a school rooftop garden. I said, “Sure!” and I wrote a draft. All 24 revisions were for Stephanie. Without a contract.
I was to the point where I was quietly and politely saying to myself, “Come ON!” But I knew since she had asked me for it that the odds were good that if I could come up with the version that we both liked that she’d take it. And, I love how it turned out. It’s beautiful.
RVC: In looking at what critics and regular readers say about your books, they often talk about heart. What is that, and perhaps more important, how does a writer create it?
PZM: Heart is one of the most important things a picture book can have. To me, heart is this universal emotion such that anybody–whether they’re 4 or 94–can read a book and say, “Oh, I felt that way!” Something in the book resonates with them and reminds them of the common humanity they share with everyone else. Happiness, sadness, hope, nostalgia–it’s some intense universal emotion.
The way I think about adding it is asking, “What do I want the reader to take away from this book that I’m writing?” Because you can have beautiful language, and it can read out loud gorgeously, but it has to make you feel something. You want the reader to close the book and have something linger with them, so they want to go back and read it again. That’s the heart.
Then I ask, “What are the biggest emotions I remember from being a kid?” Not necessarily what led to those emotions, but what ARE the emotions? And I think about how I might channel some of that into what I’m writing. Sometimes you only need a line or two. It doesn’t have to be dripping with whatever your emotion is–you can get a lot of emotion out of the right line being in just the right place.
RVC: It’s getting the right line in the right place that makes a book a hit. And speaking of hits…what was it like the first time that you realized you were a New York Times bestselling author?
PZM: This is one of my favorite stories. It was 2018, and I was in my 50s. I’d just found out that I needed to have my tonsils out. Getting your tonsils out at any age isn’t fun, but when you’re an adult, it’s worse. Be Kind had come out in February and this was now August. The day after I had my tonsils out, I was at home in bed, feeling like I was going to die.
My phone buzzed. It was my agent. She KNEW that I was having this done. I was thinking Why is she calling me? Still, I pushed the button. She said, “Don’t talk. Don’t say anything. But I have to tell you that Be Kind made the New York Times bestseller list.” So, I did what any logical person would do. I screamed. Major pain! I was still on massive narcotic medicine so the whole situation didn’t make a lot of sense.
I hung up. Later, it got announced, and all of a sudden, my phone is vibrating off the table because people are texting me, calling me, and tagging me on social media. I felt so good emotionally and so bad physically. I finally handed the phone to my husband and said, “This is making me feel worse.” It was just this weird balance of life.
RVC: Great story. Now, you didn’t up and quit your day job right after that.
PZM: No. That was in 2018, and I quit my job for good and became a full-time writer in 2021.
RVC: I’m not sure most would wait three years.
PZM: Some people are very fortunate. Maybe they have a spouse or a partner or someone who has regular, consistent, predictable income–enough where they could deal with the ups and downs of publishing money, which is never predictable. I provided more than half of our family income, so I couldn’t just quit.
My husband and I started meeting with a financial planner, especially after I got the first couple of royalty checks after hitting the New York Times list which were bigger than I ever thought they could be. I kept thinking, “It’s not going to last forever.” With the financial planner, we did a whole budget. What were we spending now? What were we thinking we’d spend in the future once both our kids weren’t living at home? What were our goals for retirement? What did we already have?
We spent over a year talking to them and finally they entered it all into this computer program. And they said, “You could leave your job now.” I wanted to do it, but I waited a couple more months–until June–just because I wanted to get everything dotted and crossed. When I left my job, I knew exactly how much money I needed to bring in each year to meet my expenses. I also had a plan. If royalties brought in that much, then awesome! If they didn’t, I was going to make up the difference through speaking engagements, school visits, or whatever. I had a plan, which made me feel better about my decision.
RVC: You’ve mentioned this before–you’ve got five books coming out this year. How do you handle promoting so many?
PZM: Right now, one just came out recently–Not So Small, my social justice, activism, protest picture book. So, I’m talking about that one. But then I’ve got two coming out in June, so I’m starting to talk about them. It’s been hard balancing five, because I think five is too many. I know that sounds like a “Poor me!” kind of thing, but it’s hard to do.
Normally, I would have one or two [books come out in a year] and I’d really focus on them. Now, I always feel like I’m either over-promoting and annoying people or I’m not giving each book its own particular due.
RVC: When I interview productive authors, they often face the same challenge.
PZM: Can I talk about my favorite of the five?
RVC: That was my next question, so sure!
PZM: See You Someday Soon is my favorite. Suzy Lee did the art, and she put die cuts in the cover and throughout the book. The holes go all the way through the pages that have die cuts. It’s one of the most beautiful picture books I’ve ever seen. Suzy is amazing. I’m really, really proud.
This is another story where I revised the book probably eight or nine times specifically for an editor. The story ended up so much the better for it, though. It started out as a character-driven story and it ended up being more of a lyrical poem. It’s so much better than it was, and I couldn’t have been more excited about this particular book. I actually wrote a blog post about the revision process and how everything went down.
RVC: That’s a Roaring Brook Press book? Who was your editor there?
PZM: I like all my editors, but Connie is especially wonderful. She helps me be the best version of myself as a writer. Before she got a job at a different house, she was the original editor for Wherever You Go, and she was the editor for Be Kind, which is a book that made the New York Times bestseller list.
RVC: Let’s talk rhyme. How do you get the words to sing off the page?
PZM: I do a ton of reading my stories out loud, you know, just sitting at my computer, staring at it, reading the words out loud. I really try to listen and think about how the words sound. I think about what they make the reader feel. And then I ask, “Are they as simple as they can be?” Because it’s for kids. Now, when I say “simple,” I don’t mean you have talk down to kids, but rather be simple and clear. The perfect word in the perfect spot. That’s what I’m going for.
It’s more of a feeling that something is working or not. I don’t know how to explain it other than that I can just feel when it’s right.
RVC: Is rhyming something that comes naturally to you?
PZM: As much as I like rhyming books–and I’m very proud of the rhyming books I’ve written–I usually try to talk myself out of rhyming because it makes the initial draft harder, and it makes revising harder. It makes everything harder because rhyme has to be perfect. I do a lot of pulling my hair out when I rhyme. But when you get it right, it’s the best feeling in the world.
I’ve never taken a prose story and said, “Oh, this ought to rhyme.” If a story comes to me initially in rhyme and I can’t talk myself out of it, then I continue. I spend a lot of time tapping out the rhythm when I write. I spend a lot of time clapping–I’m sure I’m just a joy to live with while I’m doing all of this! I’ll also go to Rhyme Zone for the perfect word to make it a line work.
RVC: And then there’s meter.
PZM: I was an English major in college which means I learned all about iambic pentameter, but I can’t look at something and say, “Oh, that’s…whatever.” I can tell whether it’s consistent and whether it works, even if I don’t know the official name for the metric structure. You have to be able to hear how the language sounds, and then has to sound like a story. You can’t twist the language to make the rhyme work. You don’t want to sound like Yoda by moving things around. It’s got to sound natural and conversational, yet also rhyme. That’s the hardest part of getting it right.
RVC: In your mind, who sets the bar for picture book rhymes?
RVC: Where do you think most picture book writers go wrong with rhyme?
PZM: One issue is that they think it has to rhyme because they grew up reading Dr. Seuss. It absolutely does not have to rhyme. They also think that if the last word in each of their sentences rhymes, that’s a rhyming book. Well, no, because you’ve got to have the meter, too. There’s got to be a rhythm that’s consistent and works. And then they try to use what I call near rhyme like “tune” and “zoom.” They both have a similar sound, but they don’t rhyme. They’re a close rhyme, but not a perfect rhyme. In picture books, you need to get it perfect.
RVC: What’s your single best secret weapon tip for making rhyme work?
PZM: You’ve got to get the meter right. And you’ve got to be able to count it out. Like I said, the tapping and clapping helps me. But when I’m really stuck, I’ll go through and highlight the stressed syllables. That helps me see the pattern I’ve got going and where I’m going wrong. It’s a very visual way of looking at your manuscript.
RVC: Great idea.
PZM: If you’re just massively struggling, try writing it in prose. In fact, a lot of times when I do critiques for people, I’ll say, “Have you tried writing this in prose?” At least give it a shot. A rhyming story has to have the same quality of plot that a non-rhyming story does. Just because it’s rhyming doesn’t mean you can skip telling a good story.
Here’s another thing. When you’ve got your stanzas, it can help to go to the side of each and [in the margins] write a single sentence saying what’s happening in the stanza. Then look at your sentences and ask, “Is this enough of a story arc? Or am I saying the same thing on consecutive stanzas and there’s no rising action and falling action?”
RVC: You’ve got a reputation for doing great school visits. Do you still do a lot of them?
PZM: Far less than I used to, partially because of the pandemic. I’m not like some authors who get the bulk of their income from them. Honestly, doing them makes me incredibly anxious. I’ve learned to manage it, and I enjoy them once I’m actually there doing them, but I prefer to write more than give school visits.
RVC: What’s your best tip for giving a great school visit?
PZM: Pre-planning, such as working with the school and asking, “Can you send me an agenda? What are you specifically expecting from me?” Sometimes I’d show up as we’d agreed and I find out they scheduled three extra presentations they hadn’t told me about.
Once I’m there with the kids, they’re excited, and I’m happy to be with them. That takes you a long way because kids are fun. If you can meet them where they are and show them that you’re excited to be there, it goes well.
RVC: I just saw you a few weeks back at the FLSCBWI conference. What’s it like being faculty at events like that?
PZM: It’s one of my favorite things to do. I love talking to aspiring writers. I love listening to where they are in their journey and telling them my own journey and hoping some of it applies. I love talking about the craft of writing–getting into the nuts and bolts of what makes a good picture book. And, I love giving keynotes. For some reason, they don’t make me nervous.
Speaking at SCBWI events is sort of a dream come true, because I started my career by going to an SCBWI conference and feeling worried and out of place. Now to be a keynote speaker at them? It’s a huge step up. It makes me happy, like I’ve come full circle and achieved some of the goals that I wanted. I remember looking at some of those keynote speakers early on and thinking they were just amazing.
When I was in Florida at the event where we met, a woman came up to me in the lobby. “Oh my God, it’s PAT!” I was laughing because I’m just me, but she was excited to meet me. That was pretty cool.
RVC: More often than not, when you’re brought to one of these events, it’s to be one of the Big Deals there. Care to share a time where you went to an event and totally fangirled over someone else?
PZM: Marla Frazee. Oh my God, MARLA! Crazy! I got to sign next to her at a book signing event. I almost couldn’t breathe because I love everything she does. She’s super funny.
PZM: I’ve also been really excited to meet editors for the first time, like when I realized, “Wow, that’s Allyn Johnson [of Beach Lane].” I was also thrilled when I got to meet Rajani LaRocca at the Florida SCBWI conference. We’ve gone back and forth on social media a few times, and we’ve been on a virtual panel together, but I’ve never met her in person. She was amazing.
RVC: Here’s a strange question. How do you say your name? Is “Zietlow” a middle name?
PZM: It’s pronounced ZEET-low. That was my maiden name. I kept it when I started writing picture books, because there were a lot of other Pat Millers. I thought about hyphenating it, but it’s not really my legal name. I figured I’d keep it as two separate names. Plus, my parents were always so supportive of my writing career that I wanted to acknowledge them. Having that name on my books does that.
RVC: Do people ever ask you that name question? I hope so, because that’s a lovely little story there.
PZM: I don’t normally get asked about it. Growing up, kids tease each other about anything they can get their hands on, and I got teased about my last name. They took Zietlow and they turned it into “meatloaf” or other weird words. So, I didn’t always love Zietlow. But now that I look at it, I think it’s a great name.
RVC: Agree completely! Now, in all your experience in the world of kidlit, what has surprised you the most?
PZM: How long everything takes. Getting books out into the world is such a long process. It’s worth it, but nothing moves quickly.
The other surprise is going to sound hokey, but kidlit people are super nice. The entire kidlit community. They support and encourage each other. They promote their books and promote other people’s books. It’s just a nice group of people, which is another part of the reason I like going to conferences so much.
RVC: Brag time. What are you excited about?
PZM: On my YouTube channel, I’ve put out one of my favorite webinars for free. It’s sort of my gift to the kidlit world.
RVC: What’s it about?
PZM: One of the things I’m most passionate about with picture books is cutting words. A lot of times, I’ll critique people’s manuscripts and I’ll say, “You could tell this exact same story with 200 fewer words, and you wouldn’t hurt your plot at all. It would read so much better.” I’ve had many people watch this webinar, apply the ideas to the manuscript, and then reach out to me on Twitter or email to tell me their success stories.
RVC: In terms of books, is there anything you’d like to promote?
PZM: See You Someday Soon is the book of my heart, and it’s beautiful. It’s got starred reviews from Kirkus and Horn Book already, which makes me really happy. It’s all about how do you love someone far away? And how do you stay connected to someone when they’re far away? I wrote it well before the pandemic was even on anyone’s radar, but it’s such an appropriate book after what’s been going on. Suzy Lee’s creativity with the die cuts and the partial pages elevates the entire book, too.
TRV: Okay, Pat. It’s time for the SPEEDROUND. Fast questions and even faster answers. Are you ready?
PZM: Sure. Hit me!
RVC: What’s the funniest word in the English language?
PZM: Bassoon.
RVC: What always cheers you up when you think about it?
PZM: My cats.
RVC: Pick a theme song to describe where you are in your life right now.
PZM: “Hammer and a Nail” by the Indigo Girls.
RVC: Which picture book author would you want to write your life story?
RVC: What’s your favorite comment from a kid about you or your books?
PZM: I went back to the elementary school I graduated from and did a presentation there. They were obviously really happy to see me, and they made a big deal out of it. When I was done, this little boy with a mohawk–a tiny little kid with a big mohawk–ran up, threw his arms around me, and yelled, “I hugged the famous person!” and then ran off before I could even respond.
RVC: Thanks so much, Pat–this was great! Leave it to two Wisconsin folks to make the magic happen. 🙂
This month’s interview is with Marcy Campbell, whose debut picture book, Adrian Simcox Does NOT Have a Horse!, was a Junior Library Guild Selection, a Top 10 Indie Next Pick, Winner of the Comstock Read-Aloud Award, the recipient of the SCBWI Crystal Kite Award, and was translated into eight languages. She’s since gone on to write other award-wining picture books and middle-grade novels as well.
MC: I was always a storyteller. I made up stories to tell my pets at a very young age, but it was teachers who fueled my love of books. I still remember crying at my desk in fifth grade during a post-recess read aloud when Charlotte (from Charlotte’s Web) died. I still haven’t quite recovered.
MC: Around the time I had a draft of Adrian Simcox Does NOT Have a Horse ready to go, I had a few friendly exchanges with a kidlit agent on Twitter, and she agreed to look, then kindly informed me I needed to cut the manuscript in half. She wasn’t interested in repping the book, regardless, so after making some major revisions, I started looking up agents on various lists I found online. That’s one way of doing it, and I sent a query to one agent from that research who never responded. But the better way to find an agent is to look at the books you love and see who represents those authors.
Last Stop on Market Street by Matt de la Peña and Christian Robinson had a huge impact on me as I was writing Adrian, and Steve Malk reps both Matt and Christian. So, I sent an email query with my manuscript to Steve, saying how much I loved that book. After a lengthy phone call, we started working together. I couldn’t believe it was happening for weeks afterwards, but if anyone thinks I was an “overnight” success, they should know I had racked up more than 300 agent and small press rejections on an adult novel I’d been working on for years. Turns out, I was just writing for the wrong age group.
MC: Each one has been different. Something Good, for example, was my response to a real-life event, and came out pretty quickly. Others have taken more time to cultivate. I tend to freewrite around an idea for quite a while, picking it up periodically and adding more material until I start to see the shape of a story. At that point, I sit down to write a draft. Then, I put it away. Then, I pick it up in a few days or weeks and decide whether I still want to work on it.
MC: Partially, yes. Believe it or not, I hadn’t read The Giving Tree until I became a parent and boy, did I hate it! So, I was thinking about writing a response to that with more giving, less taking, and no room for a rotten little boy/man. I also wanted a subtle message about caring for the environment. I also wanted to explain how some things that are worth doing can take a long time. I wasn’t sure whether I could do all of that in one book until I heard a proverb, “Plant a tree you’ll never see the shade of.” I was at an SCBWI conference when a speaker said that, and I have no idea what the rest of her talk was about because I started scribbling out a draft of The More You Give (at that time, called The Giving Boy) in the back of the room. Sometimes you just need that spark to tie all your ideas together.
MR: Big influences for me have been Jacqueline Woodson, Matt de la Peña, Philip Stead, Mac Barnett (I’m thinking of Extra Yarn here, though Mac is a great inspiration for funny books, too).
Welcome to Roxanne Troup, the subject of our September Author Interview.
This month’s Author Interview is with Linda Elovitz Marshall, who’s a “writer of books for young children and other cool stuff.” I know her from a previous critique group and from Jane Yolen’s Picture Book Boot Camp. With all the success Linda’s having lately, it seems the right time to find out why.
This month’s Author Interview is with Jocelyn Watkinson. The idea for her debut picture book–
